Thanks to Tim for emailing the link to the new film clips from The Dr Oz Show which have been posted on the IANDS website. In the short clips there are interviews with people who have had NDEs. They describe their NDE and how the experience has affected their life.
There is also an interview with DrSam Parnia giving an update of the AWARE study.
The most interesting clip is an interview with physician Dr Mary Neal who herself had a NDE. It was fascinating to hear Dr Neal describe her NDE and then talk about how her experience has changed her understanding of NDEs and death. From being very sceptical of NDEs her own experience has totally changed her mind. Not only has her experience affected the way in which she cares for her patients but it also enabled her to be very strong for her whole family when her son was tragically killed in an accident which is testimony to how powerful NDEs can be for those who experience them.
It will be interesting to hear what people have to think about the film clips.
To watch the film clips click onto the link below:
http://iands.org/news/news/front-page-news/795-dr-oz-program-asks-ndes-are-they-real.html
It was a teriffic show. I was expecting more of an effort to medically debunk ndes. I was surprised to see Dr Parnia there. There was nothing new, however as you say to see a medical doctor testify to how real it was makes you really think.
Some classic quotes from Parnia…
“so the question is does your mind and conciousness also stop functioning when you’ve died and your brain has shut down, or does it continue”
Nope Sam, I think the question is… has your brain really shut down?
“After we die, death is reversable for a number of hours, and the human mind or conciousness, that thing that makes us into who we are. That entity that make me Sam Parnia. That doesn’t die. Just because we’ve declared someone dead.”
Perhaps that’s because the definition of ‘dead’ you are using, isn’t actually very accurate?
Same tired old theories… “…are these so called OBE’s real…” (can we prove you’re really out of your body by verifying hidden images?), “…or are they just an illusion.” (if nobody sees the hidden images).
It’s a real pity, that Parnia appears to have such black and white concepts of what might be going on. If these new OBE studies get no results (which will prove to be the case I’m afraid), they will be used by critics to dissuade further research into NDE’s. If that were to happen, it would be a tragedy for future research in this area, which I believe has potential to provide us with clues about our perception of time and space, consciousness, and how our brain functions.
Hi, Max,
Obviously I don’t agree with your comments above but we have already agreed to disagree so no point in going back there.
“If these new OBE studies get no results (which will prove to be the case I’m afraid), they will be used by critics to dissuade further research into NDE’s”
The Aware study is a pilot I believe and will be followed by a bigger study, I’m sure I’ve heard Parnia say…apologies if I’m wrong. Chris Carter stated this so I assume he must have asked Parnia.
I agree with you Max that getting a hit is going to very difficult but any accurate veridical
observations are also going to be published so if he is also using video cameras it should be possible to see for ourselves whether there is a conventional explanation ( for any accurate reports)
Finally, Penny, thanks for posting these.
You may have seen this presentation given by Parnia at the APRU last year… worthy of watching if you haven’t…
http://www.gold.ac.uk/apru/lectures/parniavideo/#d.en.20375
@46:00 onwards he talks about the AWARE Study… Video evidence doesn’t appear to be part of the study? …he seems clear that no significant positive results will mean “…I think we can stop…” (i.e. no further studies). He also suspects that these reported OBE’s will turn out to be “…an illusion, trick of the mind…”.
I stand by what I said earlier…
I stand by what I said earlier…
That’s okay, Max, you are entitled to your opinion. I have seen the lecture at Goldsmiths and my take on it is that Parnia felt the full weight of sceptical pressure (Chris French and others were there). What else can you say to a roomful of academics who would no more accept the idea of disincarnate minds than a belief in ET and Bigfoot. So I think that’s why he said what he said, but of course I might be wrong.
I do believe that something leaves the body. The vast quantity of veridical information that has been garnered over and over again during OBE’s has persuaded me. That and the testimony of the patients who insist that they were out and above their bodies. It all fits perfectly together, a totally convincing and life changing experience.
Hi,Tony,
“There was nothing new….”
To hear a cardiologist state that the the ‘entity’ that we believe ourselves to be ( not verbatim) …survives some time after cardiac arrest is very significant. I guarantee you won’t find a single professional sceptic that agrees with that.
Tim, I agree. It is significant. However this was known simply by reviewing Van Lommel’s study so its nothing really new (which is a few years old now) albeit as tremendous this study was. I was hoping we would hear something more specific on the AWARE study.
Parnia seemed somewhat more convinced about the idea that life exists after death, but its really nothing new- or different then his original stance so I was dissapointed. Given that death which is defined as no heart, brain, or respitory function, its a process, and it still leaves open whether or not there is some brain activity that is not measureable – and can still exist even though its not measureable with an EEG. Isn’t the EEG only measuring the surface area of the neo-cortex? I assume they don’t have the time to set up an EEG during this type of emergency… So we really can’t assume that there is no brain function. Yes, the lower brain functions may not measure anything either when testing the reflexes, and I assume (with little knowledge on how this goes) that they do test the reflex in the eyes. But still, do we know if something else is going on in the brain even at this time? Heck, we don’t even have the slightest idea how consciousness works anyhow! So there is no additional insight in this regard.
Penny, I read that part of the study is to use a machine that measures blood flow in the brain. Would you know more about that, and does it add anything to what we already know?
I personally believe when you take everything into account, something spiritual is going on. Especially when you think that this conscious experience is a heightened experience. And when you think of the neuroplasticity of the brain that points to the mind using the brain for its purpose. And that free-will is an illusion if we take the materialists view, the fact that it is currently not possible to explain how a bunch or neurons, electric impulses and chemicals can even begin to explain what is consciousness, and the veridical OBES.
Yes, the EEG measures the surface area of the neocortex but doesn’t measure deep brain activity. During unconsciousness a pupil torch is shone into the eyes to check if they are reacting to light. Fixed, dilated pupils are indicative of brain death although sometimes drugs administered such as atropine or adrenaline may also contribute to this so it is not a definitive test in itself. At present I am not aware of any way of non-invasively assessing function of the deep brain structures.
It is virtually impossible to conduct an EEG during cardiac arrest because cardiac arrests usually occur very quickly and unexpectedly. In the event of a likely impending cardiac arrest it would take too long to get the equipment and set it up (placing the electrodes on the scalp etc). Even in the event of a cardiac arrest occurring unexpectedly during the recording of an EEG the CPR and would create too much artifact to produce a viable EEG trace. You’re quite right Tony, we have no idea how consciousness works.
I think the blood flow to the brain device that you mention is a pulse oximeter. From conversation with Dr Parnia when the AWARE study was being planned he was hoping to trial a new pulse oximeter that is easily placed on the patient’s forehead. Pulse oximeters are commonly used in hospitals especially intensive care units – they are small peg-like devices that are placed on a patients finger or ear lobe and they measure the amount of oxygen in the blood. My understanding is that this is a new device that can be very easily and quickly placed on the patient’s forehead to give a reading of oxygen levels – this level can be observed throughout the resuscitation procedure and may give an indication as to how well the brain is being perfused with oxygenated blood.
Something is clearly occurring in patients who report NDEs / veridical OBEs. I have nursed thousands of unconscious patients and when they regain consiousness they are usually a little disorientated and very spaced out. Yet the ones who have reported a NDE / OBE have been very precise and clear about what they experienced – they may not understand the experience but it is a heightened state of consciousness that they report and not simply an unconscious experience / hallucination. The two kinds of experience are very different indeed but unless people are familiar with both kinds of experiences then it is easy to understand why they so often get massed together as the same kind of experience.
I think new research into neuroplasticity will contribute greatly to our understanding of consciouness.
” But still, do we know if something
else is going on in the brain even at this time?”
Hi, Tony
As I understand it, the neo cortex is always necessary for all normal
human experience… thinking, processing information, forming memories which are all part of the NDE. I’m baffled by sceptics who suggest that some deep structure in the brain could still be functioning etc. This goes against what has already been agreed by
neurologists etc. It’s called moving the goal posts and
it doesn’t make any sense as Eben Alexander has explained. His neo
cortex was totally shut down therfore no experience should have been
possible.
Good point Tim.
How about if I throw a spanner in the works to evoke more responses and ask – is it possible that deep brain structures are in some way involved but we just don’t understand in which way yet? Are NDEs showing us that there is more to the functioning of the neo cortex (and deep brain structures) than we currently understand therefore expanding our understanding of brain function? I don’t know the answers to these questions but there are so many possibilities to consider. It’s really exciting exploring different perspectives and I welcome ideas from everyone who wishes to contribute to the blog. I’m not saying that NDEs are just attributable to brain processes but there may be brain processes that are correlated with experiencing a NDE i.e. certain processes may occur as the NDE is experienced but these processes don’t create the NDE as many sceptics believe.
Further research into NDEs is essential for us to gain a greater understanding of both consciousness and brain function in relation to consciousness.
“– is it possible that deep brain structures are in some way involved but we just don’t understand in which way yet? ”
Thanks for the response, Penny.
I suppose it is theoretically possible that there is something, some area deep in the brain responsible but it seems to me just as difficult to accept (for science ) as the dualist theory (which I do believe).
To propose deep structure, one has to disregard veridical OBE’s and the narative given, then you have to rewrite the text books on how the brain supposedly creates our reality. You have to give this new area of the brain powers of paranormal information gathering and also come up with a way that it might accomplish all this when it is receiving less and less oxygen and then no oxygen in the space of fifteen seconds to sixty seconds or so.
I’ve tried to think how this might work but it just sounds preposterous to me. Of course, a disembodied mind sounds preposterous too, I know that… but then we are back at the beginning.
but I didn’t say that I was interested in the subject, rather I played the sceptic (very gently) and asked a few questions while I had the chance (he wanted me to ask, I’m sure)
The sequence of events in the NDE makes sense if you take it at face value for what the experiencers tell us.
Thousands of sound minded cardiac arrest patients claim they have seen (actually seen not visualised) their physical bodies. They are adamant about this so I assume that if I had a cardic arrest (with OBE) I would also KNOW that I had really seen my own body. I can’t get round this and it has convinced me. I have spoken to quite a few people over the years who have ecountered the phenomenom and Have qizzed them. One was fairly recently when I was visiting my Mother in hospital. The chap was in the next bed with his wife sitting next to him. I can’t remember how he got started on it but he did and he told me that during his cardic arrest he ACTUALLY saw himself on the bed below. I was fascinated as you might have expected me to be
“Are you certain you actually saw your real
body ? ”
“Oh yes, absolutely I did and I looked dreadful etc”
“So you don’t think it could have been your imagination then ? ”
“No, I don’t, I know what I saw”
His wife assured me, “He’s not the kind of man to make somthing up like this you know”
“It’s okay don’t worry I believe him and thanks for telling me ”
I then carried on talking to my Mother who is deaf and kept asking me to tell her what the man was saying (which I did later). My elderly Mother who is very religious dismissed it as nonsense.
Yes, these different ways of looking at things really make me think. It can be quite mind boggling.
I totally agree about what you said about the man you spoke to at the hospital. I have spoken to patients, some of whom were in my study and others since who were absolutely adamant that they had seen their actual body. Whenever I’ve enquired if it could have been a trick of the mind or some kind of hallucination they were even more adamant that this was a very real experience and ‘realer than real’.
This phenomenon is always going to keep me fascinated.
I’m baffled by sceptics who suggest that some deep structure in the brain could still be functioning etc.
I can’t understand why you are baffled Tim… it seems perfectly logical to accept this as at least a possibility.
You can argue until the cows come home that they were dead, brain was dead etc… but it’s impossible for research to make any headway here… the fact that these patients are always successful resusitated indicates that brain function was viable throughout the period they were clinically dead.
The important point is the occasional verified OBE component of these monitored NDE’s, which provide strong evidence that the patient has aquired information by a currently unknown mechanism.
That’s why I’m frustrated with these studies which concentrate on hidden pictures on high. They only need to concentrate on designing experiments which set out to prove these patients get information by an unknown mechanism.
That’s the first stage, and its enough. Studies like AWARE are over reaching themselves in my view, and they will be proved wrong with their ‘disembodied eyes’ theory.
Penny, I finally read Sheldrake’s ‘Parrot’ paper, thanks for pointing it out as worthwhile reading. It seems to confirms my own personal experience of telepathy with visual imagery, and thus my own ideas about the transmission of ‘visual imagery’ over ‘space’ during these verified OBE’s, in particular when it’s of an ‘emotional’ and ‘relevant’ nature, and thus probably over ‘time’ as well.
Hi, Max,
You make some interesting points but we are going over the same ground again. I can’t envisage or understand how a piece of brain tissue deep in one of the lobes can gather information in the form of visual real time perception independently (or not whatever) from the conscious mind in the neo cortex. I don’t know of any scientist that does either (maybe Persinger)so it’s just a theory.
“You can argue until the cows come home that they were dead, brain was dead etc… but it’s impossible for research to make any headway here… ”
I wouldn’t want to argue to that extent, Max, but I do believe I’m simply following what is known currently and proposed currently. I don’t think Sam Parnia would agree with you either and I consider him a very worthy source.
I think your theory is a little like super psi but that in itself is really just as hard to accept as disembodied minds.
Just a quick note in response about Persinger. Have you read The Spiritual Brainby Dr Mario Beauregard? He presents a thorough critique of Persinger’s God helmet work that you may find interesting.
“I think your theory is a little like super psi but that in itself is really just as hard to accept as disembodied minds.”
Tim, it’s much easier for me to believe because I’ve had one highly unusual experience myself, that I’ve tried to make sense of…
http://drpennysartori.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/obe-veridicality-research/#comment-79
I ruled out ‘premonition’, because the imagery was at night, and we only visited during the day.
The popular candidate was was that I was somehow ‘disembodied’, however…
1) The gate opened to allow me to pass through, as if pushed open.
2) I moved through the gate and across the yard at one height, and the position whilst looking at the gate was higher than my actual height at the time, which suggests the unknown broadcaster was taller than me.
3) The focus of vision moved to the kitchen step as I crossed the yard, just as you would expect, if you were watching where you were putting your feet at night.
I was forced to dispense with the ‘disembodied’ theory, however attractive it was, because of these points.
I was left with ‘telepathy’, this fitted better. It also has an additional bonus, because the experience included very strong emotional content (fear). I have absolutely no reason to have been frightened in that situation, it felt more likely that I was experiencing somebody elses fear. From my own research, strong emotion appears to be a typical component of telepathic type experiences.
My sticking point is that I have no explanation as to why I could not see any part of the broadcasters body. I can see why this makes people believe they are ‘disembodied’, hence the term OBE. Perhaps the visual awareness of our own body is added by our brain after the fact, where as in the raw sensory data it doesn’t actually appear, because it is in our peripheral vision and thus hidden, and therefore doesn’t appear in live broadcast telepathic imagery? Or, perhaps we simply don’t understand how vision is created?
It was the failure to see any part of the broadcaster’s body, which lead me to consider whether OBE’s during NDE’s, might have a similar explanation as my experience. The more I’ve researched verified OBE’s during NDE’s , the more convinced I have become that they have a similar explanation. It was Rupert Sheldrake who told me to approach Penny and Peter Fenwick with my ideas.
Penny,
Yes, I have read the Spiritual brain but I can’t remember the details of his comments on Persinger so I’ll have a another look, thanks.
Max,
Your experience possibly fits into the category of dream visitations (if I have that term correct). One I recall from memory was a woman who visited her husband on a ship and was seen bending over him by the husbands companion. You say you couldn’t see your ‘body’ so that
has persuaded you that telepathy is a better explanation and therefore could also apply to veridical OBE’s. The reason I reject that idea is that the vision reported by patients in their OBE’s is by and large crystal clear and often better than normal vision. Wouldn’t telepathy be the same as remote veiwing ? As I understand it remote viewers don’t get crystal clear views of the target scene, rather they pick up visual clues and put them together….
My take after thirty years of looking at OBE’s is that an as yet scientifically undiscoverd entity exists together with the physical
body as it’s controller and leaves at death or in a near death situation or sometimes during sleep and meditation. I believe this but of course I might be wrong. Thanks for the debate.
“You say you couldn’t see your ‘body’ so that has persuaded you that telepathy is a better explanation”
Not really… not seeing any part of a broadcasters body puzzles me, but it’s not why I have settled on ‘telepathy’ for the time being.
Telepathy is my best worst guess because the other options don’t fit as well, and… well it fits with my theory on apparitions/hauntings. The quality of the imagery during my experience was incredible, I can still see the detail of the gate with green flaking paint, with white curled edges of the different paint layers underneath, and grey timber grain. That’s why I acted on it, it had an unusual quality that I can’t really explain, it was very very vivid. It almost feels like the imagery got lodged ‘somewhere’ that it is not normally supposed to get lodged.
I’m intrigued by the relationship between these two types of phenomena. The first being telepathic type events that are relatively common, and can happen over great distances of ‘space’ but in the same ‘time’. The second being apparitions or haunting type events which are well documented, and occur in a particular location or ‘space’, but from a different ‘time’. The relationship appears to bear some similarity to the complementarity principle of Quantum Theory, otherwise known as Hizenbergs principle of uncertainty.
This principle states that the more we know about the speed and direction of a sub-atomic particle (quantum level), the less we can know about its position. Hizenbergs states that if we knew the exact speed and direction of such a particle, then it’s position would become highly uncertain, indeed it could be anywhere within infinity. This works the other way round as well, if we know a particles position, then it’s future speed and direction become uncertain. The more you know about one, the more uncertain the other becomes.
If you exchange ‘time’ for ‘speed and direction’, and ‘space’ for ‘position’, then it becomes apparent that under the Complementarity principle of Quantum theory, the following rules might apply to the previously mentioned phenomena:
The spatial location of an apparition would necessarily become more defined as the temporal location of the broadcaster in relation to the receiver becomes more uncertain. (i.e. the further back in time the broadcast comes from, the smaller the area becomes in which it can be received).
Similarly, in a telepathic event, the temporal location of the broadcaster in relation to the receiver is very close, indeed very defined, so the uncertainty principle allows the spatial location in which it can be received to be almost infinite.
We experience our particular reality because our perception of time is so restricted by our brain, this is necessary to experience and interact with our spatial reality.
As we die, during the last couple of weeks of our life our brains seem unable to lock-on to time so well, and this causes us to increase our perception of time, which necessarily reduces our experience of space. You get the typical ELE… we seem to know when we’re going to die, dead friends and relatives are seen, coming ever closer in the last few days as space shrinks, and our perception of time increases.
Anyway… just a few thoughts… its fun talking about it
I’m really enjoying reading all of the dialogue. These are great perspectives and are giving me a lot to think about too – thank you!
Wow, most of that is above my head but it is interesting.
Max, lets see if we can close this down a bit. Do you believe that the visions that the dying see are actual visions of entities that are living (alive) in a different dimension ( Heaven shall we say or the other place if there is one) …or do you think that they are constructs of a dying brain trying to comfort itself ?
I believe that the NDE and DBV are closely related and the entities seen by the dying always have bodies so if you could answer that I think we might come to a conclusion, because if we just stay with the OBE/NDE I’m sure we won’t.
Regarding the veridical OBE’s I have to ask this because I am struggling with my beliefs on this subject and its so important to know the truth about all this. Although I am inclined to accept them as true out of body experiences, I still wish we can seal the coffin on this debate and it will continue to gnaw at me until then. I still need to personally know if we have some combination of unconscious hearing of what is going on, coupled with the brain piecing these sensory inputs into a story using some type of dream-like thought process. A dream can really add to the narrative of what’s going on and can explain what is happening – in say – other rooms where these patients are not in ear-shot. That is to say, the dream can elaborate on something that is not happening just because it might make logical sense (such as seeing a mother or father crying in another room). See, the thing is we hear a lot of the very interesting OBE’s accounts, and we don’t hear of those that are completely wild and inaccurate. Or at least I don’t. Those would most likely get dismissed as “hallucinatory” and thus do not get into the mix of these OBE accounts that are collected or reported. They would be far less sensational.
Penny, what’s your thought on this? We discussed the possibility of some type of hearing while unconscious. I believe you also mentioned that some patients in your study reported some hallucinatory accounts. Would you be able to share some of those here?
Hi Tony, I think a lot more research is needed into this subject before we can get any definitive answers. You make a good point that maybe the inaccurate OBEs don’t get reported – I’ll post a comment later on things that I came across with my research regarding OBEs and also regarding hallucinations.
Tony, here is a case of anesthetic awareness in a woman undergoing eye surgery. Note…she doesn’t/ can’t create a mind model that gets her above and out of her body to get herself away from the terrible pain. The mind model was Sue Blackmore’s invention to get science out of a quandry, how to disallow the reported OBE. It’s loosely based on some psychological studies that have shown that memory can be implanted falsely. But that’s all it is, there is no real evidence that people can create mind models. If you think about it, if the mind model is the explanation for OBE’s …why do we not create them more often in different situations ? Anyway this a good example that shows clearly that the mind model is just a theory and nothing else.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/feb/19/weekend.iansample
Tony,
Also have a look at this woman’s experience and the comments of her doctor. An very severely damaged brain, completely out of order and yet a very ordered and life changing NDE. OK, it could have occured just before she woke up but it seems highly unlikely to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckg9ti7qMZE
Thanks for that Tim. I just watched the film clip – very interesting. Again the more cases like this that are reported are showing that there is still a lot more to learn about these experiences and indeed about how the brain can recover from such serious injury.
For anyone that’s interested, here is a Sam Parnia interview with George Noory. If you skip to 11 minutes you will hear him define cardiac arrest and what it means.
“Do you believe that the visions that the dying see are actual visions of entities that are living (alive) in a different dimension ( Heaven shall we say or the other place if there is one) …or do you think that they are constructs of a dying brain trying to comfort itself ?”
I have lots of ideas about this area, but the honest truth Tim, is that I haven’t explored any of them properly yet. It’s taken years for me to come up with connection between telepathy and apparitions, that bears an intriguing similarity with Hizenbergs Uncertainty Principle, and the spin off implications that might come from that…
However, with regards to your question… If you understand what I have said in my last post, you will realise that if the brains lock-on to time becomes unstable, allowing a larger slit window on time, a larger cross-section of time observable to the viewer, if you will. Then on a quantum level, that would open up the possibility of communication across time, but with a greater degree of freedom on receiving location… as time becomes less certain, space becomes less uncertain.
Max,
As I said previously, your ideas are interesting but I can’t really go ‘there’ becauase quantum is not something I properly understand although I have noted the weirdness of it and the bizarre way that particles behave.
Maybe sometime in the future we can discuss DBV’s etc. Thanks for the debate,
“Regarding the veridical OBE’s I have to ask this because I am struggling with my beliefs on this subject and its so important to know the truth about all this.”
@Tony… this is what gets me frustrated with current studies such as AWARE.
We are desperately short of experiments which are merely designed to demonstrate that the patient has obtained real information by an unknown mechanism.
Hello Dr, Sartori,
It’s Feb. 2012 now.
Have you heard of anything being released, leaked, or hinted at concerning the results of the AWARE study?
Do you know of any news concerning when something will be released?
Hi Mike,
As yet I’ve heard no news on the AWARE study. Its best to ask Dr Parnia about the AWARE study. I’ll try to find out some news on it and will post something as soon as I know any details.
How would someone like me ask Dr, Parnia?
Hi Mike, Dr Parnia’s contact details may be on one of his published papers or you could try the Horizon Research website. I’ll also contact him to get an update and I’ll post any information I get.